From L-R: Rhaenys, Elia, Rhaegar, Jon Snow (well, Waters), and Aegon. I wanted to create a family portrait of Rhaegar’s family if he had defeated Robert…
This is so sad, but it’s the way KL cold have been had Elia been ok with Rhaegar having a paramour who at least loved him considerably (Lyanna).
wait a second what the fuck
are you actually blaming elia martell for robert’s rebellion? for fucking serious?
okay, ONE, there is nothing to say that elia would have minded rhaegar having a paramour (if that’s even what lyanna was, because let’s face it, until we know more about the lyanna stark situation, nobody has a clue whether it was a shady kidnapping thing or some sort of legitimate love or onesided on lyanna’s part or anything) or to say that it was because of elia that the war started or rhaegar found a need to run away to dorne with lyanna stark.
because yeah, reminder that rhaegar hid lyanna away in dorne, and i cannot even articulate how incredibly disrespectful to elia that is because not only did he run away and leave her alone with both their children and his insane father and jaime lannister, youngest knight to protect them, but he also took lyanna to dorne, elia’s homeland, and stayed there with her.
there is literally nothing to suggest that any of this was elia’s fault, unless your logic runs along the line of viserys targaryen’s, who said that i elia had been woman enough for rhaegar, he wouldn’t have had to go off with lyanna. another friendly reminder: by the same logic, viserys blamed daenerys for being born too late because if she’d been born sooner, rhaegar’d have married her and neither elia nor lyanna would have been needed. so maybe it’s just me, but it seems to me that if your logic is running along the line of viserys’, you ought to reconsider.
i just can’t even fathom why anyone would blame elia for this; okay, yeah, i personally think rhaegar was a dick about all of this, because even if he and lyanna were completely consensual, and even if it didn’t hurt elia emotionally, it was still fucking disrespectful to do in general. and yeah, okay, cite to me the thousands of bastard children fathered in westeros, the sheer amount of infidelity that occurs — not like this. he was the crown prince and she was his princess, and she already had to deal with being the outsider in westeros because the dornish were — and still appear to be — the ones considered different, and not only did he drop her in the deep end by leaving her alone in a kingdom where she was the outsider when she had poor health and two young children, he was the crown prince and did that to his princess, whilst taking the girl he’d already disrespected her for to elia’s fucking home country. and do not even get me started on how callous it was to ask arthur dayne, of house dayne, sworn to house martell - arthur dayne who probably grew up with elia martell and has known her for years - to guard lyanna stark in dorne. yeah, asking the man from the dornish family to disrespect the dornish princess by hiding her husband’s northern girl in dorne.
i could not care less about whether you ship rhaegar/lyanna or not, nor how you wish to imagine the families and all, because, you know what? go fucking crazy with your ships. but phrasing something in a way that insinuates blame on elia martell, the rightful queen of westeros and who nobody has ever said a bad word about, save the incredibly biased cersei and jon connington, the disrespected princess who despite her physical ailments, managed to stay strong despite being abandoned with her psychopathic father in law who was, terrifyingly enough, wearing the crown and sitting the throne? yeah, that’s something that doesn’t seem okay to me.
ship rhaegar/lyanna all you want. like rhaegar and lyanna and any other character all you want. that’s cool, i can dig it; i respect it. but blaming elia martell, the only one of the romanticised women who died in robert’s rebellion club to be cherished and remembered by her wit and personality and gentleness over her looks, for rhaegar’s whatever with lyanna and by proxy, the sack of king’s landing and robert’s rebellion? that is something i can’t get behind because it is so fundamentally wrong.
OK. I never followed the line of thought that Robert’s Rebellion was Elia’s fault. Nor did i believe it to be. I do ship Rhaegar with both Lyanna and Elia.
I also agree that Rhaegar did Elia wrong. He did disrespect her bringing Lyanna to Dorne. But as rightful queen, and a woman of Dorne, I just think that she would have been more ok with him having a paramour. Maybe not, there’s always a chance. What I did really base my argument on was the fact that it was a political marriage, and that Rhaegar had actually fallen in love.
ah, see, that’s where the issue came about and where i started getting defensive over elia martell - because you said if she could have been okay with him having a paramour who loved him. that implies that she was aware of whatever situation occurred (again, as readers, we don’t know - we know that rhaegar crowned lyanna queen of love and beauty, that barristan says rhaegar loved lyanna yet was still fond of elia, that robert believed rhaegar had abducted lyanna, as did brandon stark; we have no way of knowing the actual truth of events, and to be honest, short of howland reed appearing, we have no way to know what happened in the tower of joy, and short of that, the only other ways we have of piecing together the context of the situation is if some other pre-asoiaf characters start resurfacing and sharing their knowledge of the situation, and even then it’lll still be somewhat biased, but i digress) and that she expressly didn’t allow it.
the thing about rhaegar “falling in love” is that we have no actual basis to believe that lyanna loved him; the question of her disappearance being consensual or not is still up in the air, which casts doubt about her being a potential paramour for rhaegar. in general, yes, i imagine elia’s upbringing would have caused her to have been perhaps more lenient towards the idea than other westerosi women such as catelyn tully or cersei lannister, but again, we have no way of knowing that for sure. in fact, there is little to no precedent for lyanna stark as a paramour (i say little to no because i cannot think of any but there may be some slipping my mind) by the asoiaf standards.
a normal definition of the word paramour is “an illicit lover”, generally referring to the person someone cheats on their spouse with. however, in the asoiaf world, the dornish custom of a paramour appears to refer to someone who is the unmarried lover of a noble, yet no mistress of a noble has been referred to as a paramour yet. there could be someone who was called paramour and was, in fact, a mistress, which could lend credence to lyanna being a potential paramour, but as far as i can wrack my mind, paramours are the unmarried lover of a noble in the sense that they are the unmarried sole romantic/sexual partner of the noble. the main two cases we know of are oberyn/ellaria and lewyn/unnamed, though daenerys/daario could be argued.
so if that definition was accepted as a premise, lyanna could not have been rhaegar’s paramour, even if there was any evidence that she would want to be. i mean, what we know of lyanna is mainly based upon comparisons to arya stark, and i am of the opinion that nothing in arya’s character would allow for her to ever be a mistress; of course, we can’t assume she and lyanna are exactly the same, but it’s something to consider.
but it all comes back to “elia would have been more okay with rhaegar having a paramour” — the thing is, we have literally no reason to believe he consulted her about it or that if he did, she forbade it; maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, maybe she did, maybe she didn’t; we don’t know. so saying things like “if only elia had been okay with rhaegar having a paramour who at least loved him considerably” or “i just think she would have been more ok with him having a paramour” is where issues have potential to arise because the if only makes it all sound conditional, as if he asked her and she said no — which, if it happened, imo, would have been totally within her rights but i remain unconvinced that’s what happened — or that she was the problem. it takes things for granted, like rhaegar and lyanna being genuinely in love, like elia knowing of that and forbidding it, and the if only implies that it’s something elia did and should have done differently for the war to have been avoided when we have literally no evidence that it was because of anything elia did. all we know is that rhaegar took lyanna stark to dorne and hid her away and thousands died as a result. “prince rhaegar had loved his lady lyanna and thousands had died for it." in my opinion, the only if only about this situation ought to be directed at rhaegar, seeing as we actually know that he did something to spark the rebellion and lead thousands to their deaths.
again, i have no opinions on rhaegar/lyanna shipping, nor rhaegar shipping in general, but if anyone should have thought about their actions and done something differently in order to bring about happiness in the asoiaf world, it ought to have been rhaegar targaryen. i have no doubt that we’ll eventually get more information about it, but until that occurs, his were the actions that sparked it all. robert’s no angel himself, wreaking war throughout the kingdoms for a girl, and nor is aerys, murdering innocents and planning to kill more, had jaime not stopped him, and it was jaime whose storyline ran parallel to the kingmaker, criston cole, by being the member of the kingsguard to make the move that decided the course of the throne; but at the end of the day, it was rhaegar who sparked the outrage as far as the books have led us to believe. it’s all up to change, and i eagerly await for the upcoming novels to bring us more information.
if you don’t blame elia, then that’s wonderful, and i have no problem with that; however, it’s statements like if only elia could that makes it sound like the war all hinged on her, like it was some sort of pivotal decision she made that caused it all to happen, which is why it sounds like you blame her because that statement lays a heap of importance on an action of her that we don’t even know exists. as far as we know, everything that happened to elia in the war was due to her husband’s actions, and she fought like a tiger (despite all her mentioned fragility) and she still died. so i think any pivotal decision that changed the course of the war doesn’t lie on her shoulders, at least not from our current knowledge, but on rhaegar’s; at least in regards to the lyanna stark situation. war may not have been his intention, but in the situation regarding elia, rhaegar, lyanna, the kingsguard and the throne of the time, he acted in such a way that the war could follow.